Creed – by Steve Turner
seeing as no one has posted anything for a few days i thought i’d do the honours and post this poem that i really like… it’s nice and provocative.
i’d be interested to hear what you think about it, lines that struck you and just any general comments about the themes and issues raised.
my favourite line is “we believe Taboos are Taboo”
“Creed” by Steve Turner
This is the creed I have written on behalf of all us.
We believe in Marxfreudanddarwin
We believe everything is OK
as long as you don’t hurt anyone,
to the best of your definition of hurt,
and to the best of your knowledge.
We believe in sex before, during, and after marriage.
We believe in the therapy of sin.
We believe that adultery is fun.
We believe that sodomy is OK.
We believe that taboos are taboo.
We believe that everything is getting better
despite evidence to the contrary.
The evidence must be investigated
And you can prove anything with evidence.
We believe there’s something in
horoscopes, UFO’s and bent spoons;
Jesus was a good man
just like Buddha, Mohammed, and ourselves.
He was a good moral teacher
although we think His good morals were bad.
We believe that all religions are basically the same–
at least the one that we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness.
They only differ on matters of
creation, sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation.
We believe that after death comes the Nothing
Because when you ask the dead what happens they say nothing.
If death is not the end, if the dead have lied,
then it’s compulsory heaven for all
excepting perhaps Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Khan.
We believe in Masters and Johnson.
What’s selected is average.
What’s average is normal.
What’s normal is good.
We believe in total disarmament.
We believe there are direct links between warfare and bloodshed.
Americans should beat their guns into tractors
and the Russians would be sure to follow.
We believe that man is essentially good.
It’s only his behavior that lets him down.
This is the fault of society.
Society is the fault of conditions.
Conditions are the fault of society.
We believe that each man must find the truth that is right for him.
Reality will adapt accordingly.
The universe will readjust.
History will alter.
We believe that there is no absolute truth
excepting the truth that there is no absolute truth.
We believe in the rejection of creeds,
and the flowering of individual thought.
“Chance” a post-script
If chance be the Father of all flesh,
disaster is his rainbow in the sky,
and when you hear
State of Emergency!
Sniper Kills Ten!
Troops on Rampage!
Whites go Looting!
Bomb Blasts School!
It is but the sound of man worshiping his maker.
That’s good. Provocative.
I like the bit about each man believing his own thing and the universe and history adapting itself. I often wonder about that – about people who think that if I believe in heaven/hell and they believe in reincarnation both will be true in the end. It’s like they live in the matrix and can control the universe through the power of their own mind – as if it’s not all real anyway…
And then that makes me think that they musn’t believe it at all because if they did they would be more insistent. So maybe it is just a vague hope? I mean Muslim extremists believe that killing infidels will get them straight into heaven, no questions asked – hence suicide bombing is an option. Their views on the after-life are clear, but extreme.
Ours are clear, but we don’t really go on about them all the time (possible reacting to the turn or burn philosophy of our forefathers) and yet I would argue that we are right and that it is really quite an important issue!
I honestly don’t get how people can actually believe that everyone is right. That doesn’t make sense at all. I am also not saying that I have all the right answers in terms of detail, or we collectively as the Church, but I obviously belive that we know God, know our creator…
I think I am getting myself in a muddle now and am becoming incoherent and ridiculously off topic… so I will stop. But it interests me and my mind is all sparking away (I’m at work so that’s not that helpful right now…).
So I’ve been thinking about that poem and I find it really interesting and confronts us with some good points… but I find it brings up a big conflict within me about they ways its quite confrontational.
The God that we serve is the one true ONLY living God however this implies that anyone who doesn’t believe in the one true God is therefore living a lie! This is a really harsh reality of the world, and not a popular one at all, it’s not nice to tell people they’re wrong and they’d question your right to anyway? Actually I guess I’d agree that we personally don’t have the right… but actually God defiantly does! but then that brings up the question is it our right to tell people they’re doing things wrong on behalf of God (as God’s agents) or is it a matter for the Holy Spirits conviction? or both?
I think we live in quite difficult times when although we can see clearly that the world-view of many people that surround us is very easily picked apart when you apply simple rules of logic to it we can’t do anything about it because we’d be imposing our beliefs on others (which is kind of ironic when you think about it because it’s their belief that that you shouldn’t impose beliefs which has been imposed on everybody!). I personally don’t want to tell people they’re wrong for the sake of it, but because I want them to know the TRUE living God of the universe as their Friend and Father.
I can see where the whole Moral Relative thing has come from, that there has been tremendous damage caused when people with certain beliefs have tried to impose their particular set on each other… Communism, Nazism and yes indeed the Church, to some extent, have all prescribed a certain set of truths on people but because these truths weren’t Gods truth (sadly, sometimes in the case of the church too) they where ultimately flawed so people were let down and lost faith in anyone prescribing ‘a set’ of answers for all. so people decided that there was no single set of universal truths (except the universal truth that there is no universal truth of course!). I think there’s a legitimate yearning in people for something different it’s just if we’re not careful they’ll find the wrong thing.
we are asked by Paul not to conform to this world which I think means that we shouldn’t let the world dictate how we operate but we also learn that we should respect and operate through the culture of the place in which we find ourselves and perhaps by being confrontational we put people off before they have a chance to get to know God?!
I once heard a true story about a boat that crashed into a road bridge in America, part of the bridge collapsed into the river but because it was a section over the brow of the bridge, people in their cars driving towards in couldn’t see and where oblivious to the fact that they were speeding their way to a sticky end. Several cars drove off the edge of the bridge before a man in another boat grabbed his flair gun and started shooting flares at the cars that were starting to drive onto the bridge. That man probably saved the lives of dozens of people that day. I guess I think that we in the Church shouldn’t be afraid of being that man (I expect the people in the cars where getting quite annoyed with that man until they knew what was really going on) the Bible tells us to expect persecution for our beliefs, and ultimately our actions may literally save the live of friends and people around us.
we are called to be God pleasers not man pleasers. but I think this issue still bothers me though… I guess what I want to know is what can we use as our flare gun? and not just be though of as people that are just causing trouble and end up being ignored?
there’s a great article about moral relitivism at called “THE DEATH OF TRUTH” if your interested just follow this link
Some thought provoking stuff there and also some wisdom from Emsy and the closet U2 fan.
I haven’t, for most of my life, been particularly proactive when it comes to sharing the gospel. It seems this is because I feel that either people will change the way they think about me (how do I want them to think about me though?) or because I feel I will just annoy people and put them off.
While there may be some sense behind not preaching at people 24/7 I can’t believe that never mentioning the good news is more effective…
Recently, my thinking has changed. And I’ve realised that even if people don’t become christians straight away (as is usually the case) we can do all that is required of us within the relationships we have. If we do it for the right reasons and with some small amount od sensitivity and humbleness/acceptance, I’ve found that at the very least it strengthens the relationship. I’ve yet to see whether it actually brings about “conversion”, but for the first time in my life recently, I felt that I had done what was required of me.
For the first time I felt that I had shared and discussed the gospel and done all that I could to the end of revealing the gospel to a friend and that doesn’t mean I can now forget them or tick them off my list, it means that now God has to do something. Don’t know if I’m making much sense. I guess for the first time I was genuinely wondering what i could do next and God said “nothing”. Net result of my vaguely evangelistic experiment: I feel closer to god, my friend knows and understands a lot more about me and real christianity, and God continues to work.
I know that this has taken us wildly off topic and that his comment hasn’t really mde any sense or presented any points. I’m not being very coherent! Talk to me and find out a bit more of what i am talking about if you want.
My summary: I am the worst evangelist in the world. God still wants to use me, and when I get past whatever it is that makes me shy away from taking oportunities to talk to people, actually things do happen and much better than I could ever expect.
My Post-script: I guess the big thing that changed was me surrendering actually everything to God, aware that that would mean actually doing something. I guess I’ve always kind of been waiting for God to come and comandeer me forcibly so I didn’t have to change or do things myself. I suddenly realise that is not particularly sensible. My faith hasn’t changed particularly, it is more my attitude – now allowing/wanting to let God define my comfort zones. So far it has honestly made me happier and more passionate and loving (I’m not gay) than I have ever been.
Goodness me that was a lot of horribly off-topic emotional drivel about me. I apologise! I hope it somehow enriches someone else!
Now go and re-read the poem Simon put up to get yourself back on track with the real topic here.
I just re-read it and I think it is fair to say that that comment was far more about me talking about something I thought was important than me adding to this discusion.
Oh well.
I hope it makes some sense to someone.
no i think you did a good job banks… looks like i may not be the only person emerging from the closet afterall! hehe.
(NOTE TO READER you kinda have to read the comments above for that to make sence… we’re not involved in one of THOSE alternative christian communities! well maybe banks is but i’m not.)
i liked your emotional drivel about you, it’s kind of where i was trying to go with my comment (not drivel about you but the evanalism part!). but i think it’s something we really neglect… i was in a cell group back in ‘the yeovil’ and i suggested we did a cell about evagalism and everyone groned and we never did it. Then on Thurday i spent most of my evening with christians (went to 2 cell groups… don’t ask!) and out of about 20 christians between the two groups there where about 3 people that hadn’t been brought up in a christian home! now i’m not sure if people have heard of the great commision but that’s probably not ideal?
i’m really intrigued about how we engage with our non-christian friends and i guess i’d like to make it as easy as possible for people to, as banks puts it, ‘know and understand a lot more about (banks) and real christianity” – well perhaps not so much about banks but definatly Christianity and especially Jesus (they can learn about banks in their own time if they wish – he’s quite interesting and has a website devoted to his hair!)
to go back to the story of the cars on the broken bridge i guess one way we as christian can stop people flying off the edge and showing the world that there is a problem is to stop our cars and use the ferry (eg show it with our lives… live diffrently and people will be intrigued as to why we are acting so oddly!)
i liked banks envang experiment (i think something like 4 out of 5 people become christians through friends anyway?). i recon it’s not that revolutionary to say that God works through relationships. it’d be interesting to know other peoples experiences from either perspective… (i know Ben Payne had an interesting story… hint hint!)
MY POST SCRIPT also i’ve found that i’m happiest too when i do stuff that somehow feels like it’s God’s plan… hope that’s not cheesy, i know your supposed to say that when you become a Christian your problems aren’t solved you just get a new set but somehow when your really seeking and following God you don’t really mind the problems all that much.
Banks, your comment almost made me cry. I love it when God inspires people and teaches them new things.
Thanks Ems.
@ Simon
Completely agree, glad I made some vaguely relevant contribution.
Regarding your comment: “show it with our lives…”
I have developed a bit of an issue about that. Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I completely agree with what Simon was saying and about living differently any way. My issue is more with people (myself included) often using that idea as an excuse not to do or say things to people.
I find that, certainly in my christian experience, it has been said a few times “Preach the gospel at all times, and when necessary, use words” (btw. St Francis of Assisi to whom this quote is normally attributed never actually said it. Closest he got was in his “Rule” of 1221 where he says “Let all the brothers, however, preach by their deeds.” and that was in the context of just having instructed people not to preach without proper instruction – it is good to get these things right). Whilst I agree with this sentiment in it’s intended meaning, I find it has sort of become and excellent way for christians to fell they are doing what is required of them by just being good. I’m sure to someone whose only concept of evangelism is verbal preaching this is a helpful sentiment, but to those many of us brought up on this kind of thinking, I can’t help but feel, it is at least a little bit harmful in that we are easily pacified into being less effective at reaching people by feeling that we are “being good”. (what “being good” means is a key issue here but perhaps material for a different conversation.)
The reality is that I can tell people that I go to church and live as a good christian – in fact these are things I definitely should do – but unless I am prepared to actually spend time engaging people on the subject of christianity, they are not going to hear the good news. The real power behind what Simon said (ha ha) lies in explaining your reasons for behaving the way you do. You do need the backup of your good behaviour to be anything other than a hypocrite of course and I’m not talking about preaching to people or forcing anything down anyone’s throat.
I guess my main point is that I have realised that, for me at least, just being nice is not really revealing the gospel to anyone (that is, not making them consider what Jesus did for them). The great commision is not to go and be really nice to people on the off chance that they notice and ask you why. I’m not belittling living differently and being righteous – in fact these are very important and necessary – just pointing out that we do actually have to engage with people directly about faith issues and the gospel.
As an encouraging note: as mentioned above the difficulty I have had with doing this has genuinely been overcome (at least to some extent!) by God. It didn’t come from a place of me getting myself holy enough to do it (although I have spent a long time expecting it to work like that), but from a place of me finally giving up my pretence that God would one day come and forcibly redefine my comfort zones to make me more effective without me actually making any effort, and just saying “I’m not really very holy but I want to see things change”.
Also worth a mention is the fact that, with an improvement in my relationship with God, I have found that I am, without particulalrly trying to be, genuinely more loving and concerned for other people.
Without wanting sound like a girl, it really is amazing to find I actually do care about people.
Another mammoth comment.
I think Martin was a little lenient when he described me and simon as “verbose”.
it’s simon and I actually… didn’t your mother teach you anything!
I totally agree Banks – it is no use just being nice because loads of people who aren’t Christians are nice! I think sometimes people who talk about just living it out forget that – or feel that we have the monopoly on ‘nice’. We might be the most magnanimous person but without God’s intervention it would all be empty gestures. Like that song Work a Mircacle in My Heart… “Lord without your power it’s all just good intentions”. I don’t want to live a life of good intentions, I want to live a life that changes the world, even if that is one person at a time.
Paul says in 2 Corinthians “Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men.” I have been thinking about the word persuade – I always feel a bit pushy if I am trying to persuade people of things. I mean it is one thing to persuade people to go see a certain film or something – that isn’t going to require them to make some major life changes and ascribe to a whole new meta-narrative. Persuading someone to become a Christian is much harder! And yet you are right Dubs, the great comission wasn’t a call to pleasant living, or niceness, it was a call to go, tell, make disciples, travel…. Hmm. Good things to ponder!
yep i guess your right and the analogy was bad in that the people would probably just think “oh look those people are stupid and paying for the ferry when they could just get the bridge for free” and not realise what was going on until too late and still speed off into the water. umm…
i guess the issue is not do we tell people or not but HOW do we tell them without them ignoring us for whatever reason. i am constantly amazed at how little people know about what Christianity is really about (especially, sometimes compaired to how much they’re sure they think they know) it’s no wonder people don’t become Christians… i wouldn’t want to become the kind of Christian they’re thinking about either!
Interesting thoughts there. Ben did ask me if I’d consider helping out with the whole evangelism thing with UWE or BCF or whatever as I ’suffered’ living with and spending most evenings with many Christians before I converted which is still only a couple of months back. And much as I loved them all dearly at times it really was suffering!
I think it is our duty to spread the good news but you have to be so careful about how you do it coz it’s so easy to insult people. My first discussions about Christianity with certain groups of people left me with the impression that they all thought I was going to hell. That’s actually the only thing I can remember and for a faith that is primarily about love that’s probably not good! But then I just sat in on a few cell meetings and got interested and that’s what got me (if you’ll forgive the expression!). Humbleness is one area in life I think we will all always need to work on and I think you’ve we’ve got to be really careful about what we talk about to people who are not christians (I hate the phrase ‘our non-christian friends’…anyone else think it sounds a little patronising?). A lot of meetings just appear to be a lot of Christians slapping each other on the back and congratulating each other on their faith. It still makes me cringe now but I know I can probably be a bit smug about being part of such an amazing faith too. I don’t think anyone out there isn’t.
My mum tried an alpha course and it put her off forever because it was loads of Christians and every time she asked a question they all basically shouted her down. There was one other ‘non-christian’ there only and they both quit half way through the course feeling completely disillusioned by it all.
I think unless people are already really open to faith (as I was) cell meetings are not the place to welcome skeptics; they should be at GOOD alpha courses. People in cells need to be able to talk about what they want without worrying about putting off other people from the faith by their sincerity and people who want to be able to ask questions need a comfortable environment to do it in.
I still have so so many questions about Christianity I’d like to ask but I wouldn’t know where to go now…but that’s besides the point! I guess I’m trying to say evangelism has a place and shouldn’t even risk the chance of someone feeling like they’ve been smacked round the head with a very smug bible.
(PS: Si I thought spelling evangelism wrong in two different ways in one post was genius!)
One thing I have been praying for over the past few months is more opportunities to share my faith with the people I work with – both staff and ‘clients’. I have been totally amazed at the the things that have come up – especially with the people I work with who aren’t Christians.
For example, usually when telling non-Christians about something good that has happened in my life, and I believe God has had a hand in it, I would leave out the God bit. So instead of saying I feel God is challenging me about the way I spend my time, I would say I have been thinking about how better I can use my time. That’s a simplistic example but do you get what I mean?
Anyway, recently I have found God giving me the courage to say things like ‘God said to me the other day…’ or ‘I felt like God was asking me to…’. It has meant having some amazingly real discussions with one person inparticular which has been really encouraging. She keeps asking how God speaks to me and what it feels like.
I think for all my burbling on about stuff like this over many years the sheer power of my own testimony (not as in ‘when I was 5 I… and then I smoked/drank/did drugs/slept around/eneded up in prsion… just my ongoing, everyday, real, living relationship with God) is making an impact.
I have often been really struck in my own life by people who seem to have a really close relationship with God and I think that intrigues people and maybe stirs some kind of longing in then. I have to keep reminding myself that people are made – physically and emotionally – to be in a relationship with God and they are searching for it whether they know it or not.
I think my colleague is amazed by the extent to which being a Christian governs my life (incidentally it could be way more – I have a long way to go) and the diversity of areas it covers. Like money management, who I would and wouldn’t consider dating etc. It’s just really interesting to see how her perception of it all is changing through me and the rest of our staff being natural about the supernatural things that happen in our lives on a (hopefully) daily basis!!
to chlochlo
some (rather long) thoughts on this difficult ground… (sorry!)
The line “forgive it lord if I should boast save in the death of Christ my Lord” in the hymn ‘When I Survey the Wondrous Cross’ always struck me as interesting, I think Paul (the Apostle not Banks… though he may say it too?) talks about boasting in Christ in one of his letters (I forget which sorry?) so I would say that actually boasting’s OK so long as it’s about God (related to worshiping God?!) and not related to us (worshiping man)
Actually there is offence in the Gospel, as it demands massive changes in the way we live our lives and it’s not our job to remove that offence, smooth it over and make it shiny and acceptable to all, BUT we should try and remove any offence which has been attached that was not intended.
Jesus seemed amazingly good at offending people… he was so offensive that the people he came to save killed him because they didn’t like what he was saying and doing! When I read the Gospels Jesus is always offending me… getting to the roots of my heart condition… so I would propose that offence (in itself) is not a bad thing.
People often think that Christians are arrogant because they say they have THE Truth (Jesus) and they are going to heaven. I guess people are offended because the implication is that if your don’t know Jesus (like they may not) then you don’t know the truth and you wont be in God’s Kingdom (in heaven and on earth?) actually Jesus seems fairly black and white about it too. Perhaps it’s ok to be offended by the implications of your choices if that leads you to a better choice?
Also it’s vital to know, and to communicate that being accepted into God’s Kingdom has nothing to do with us but it’s God that saves us (Faith not Works). All you have to do is say “God I’m sorry I cant do this on my own, I’ve messed up I need your help” and then he does (it’s literally that simple). I think that people get offended by this because people don’t like saying that they’ve messed up and they don’t want to had over control of their lives.
Of course we need to humble ourselves but we can be sure of boasting about God.
I think that one thing that gets confused in the issue is being Judgemental and again this is a difficult issue… I think there is a view out there that as you become a more mature Christian you can become more Judgmental because your morals have become so excellent (even if it’s not spoken). I think this is sad but at the same time I think there is a place for rebuke (in love) but as far as I can see Jesus did it to people who thought they had it sorted themselves rather than the people that knew they didn’t.
I agree that people need to be in situations where they can ask open and honest questions easily as loads of people are genuinely very interested at the same time in our response we can’t water down the truth of the gospel (even the scary bits). I think there’s real hunger out there in people to be listened to and we need to get listening.
About the ‘non-Christian’ bit of course all of humanity are God’s children and loved dearly but not all of humanity knows and has accepted him as a father and maybe that’s where the distinction lies?
I hope that’s helped a tiny bit?
keep asking questions…
PS yep my spelling isn’t my strongest point but when I’m King and have rewritten the dictionary you’ll all be laughing on the other side of your faces!!!
I can’t wait until you are King Si.
you can be minister of cool if you want?
aw, thanks! That would be wicked. Could I also be minister of ice cream?
no! your minister of cool! – can you not be satistied with what your given!
having said that there is a position open for minister of potato (and all potato subsitute products*) if your interested?
*i’m going to run a very inclusive dictatorship.
and by the way, by subsitute i actually mean substitute
(on which reminds me there also may be a position for a Minister of Originanimal Spellongs if anyones interested?)
bit late here responding i’m afraid, but what was the story you were after si? i couldn’t work it out like